'for the Lord sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart'
I've often wanted to be able to temporarily read these prelates' minds when confronted with this sort of thing. Surely they must reflect on the older "feral" nuns within most of the orders, who dress like they are in a Catholic retirement home rather than a religious order and then these nuns, mostly younger, very respectful and clearly identifiable, and have some doubts about what is going on in the Church nowadays?I suspect that they think that most of the orders are a lost cause and are waiting for that generation of nuns/religious to die out and just avoid the hassle of dealing with them.Any thoughts?
Yes - Cardinal Rode actually gave a great speech on this subject late last year pretty much saying there are those who dying because they adopted a hermeneutic of rupture - let them die if they want to! But there are some people trapped in dying orders who actually want to return to what it really means to be a religious - and its them, and the new vibrant traditionally oriented orders that are the future.
TerraWe can only pray for those folks who are trapped because I'm fairly certain it must be horrific for them. As most of the orders have their leading positions dominated by the (usually) worst offenders I can't see what these people can actually do to improve their situations? It is also not helped by those who actively involve themselves in Church life and teach all sorts of strange stuff as religious teachers at the Catholic schools, marriage instructors, adult courses etc and support these types and subvert Catholic views with their dodgy theology.I personally think conservatives need to get together more often and hold talks/discussions on all sorts of issues, using the resources we have at hand (a good degree of education generally) to support each other in faith and organise ourselves for various campaigns - and dialogue gracefully, in their own terms, with those who are against us. I think we often are our own worst enemies because we willingly ghettoise ourselves to escape the horrors and there is a tendency towards elitism in the conservative/traddie communities. Alot of what interests us is considered luxurious or irrelevant to others and there are a number of particularly pedantic characters who put off the clergy with their antics. What are your thoughts?
On those trapped in problem orders there are options. Find likeminded people and try and persuade others to support. Or form a breakaway group to recover the original charism...On ghettos, I agree in principle - but in practice it requires a great deal of fortitude to venture out into the wider world. Take a look over at Sentire Cum Ecclesia for example, where the blog owner's attempt to promote a positive after-dinner style discourse has already seen Joshua attacked by third parties for speaking simple truth...And for those enduring n.o.-land liturgical purgatory, ghettoism becomes remarkably attractive!Perhaps we need to put more work into attracting people in, as well as engaging the wider catholic community.
I have noticed the recent degeneration of conversation over at SCE and part of this is related to the point I raised earlier; many conservatives/traddies are so overly pedantic and offensive in their discourse with people they disagree with. They seem to think that if they quote massive excerpts of Church documents this proves that they are correct and this is the final word on the matter in discussion. When there is any actual exchange it is often from such a distorted and/or biased position as to render it useless because they are unwilling to think about your response and/or potentially modify their own views. I think it is a type of dogmatism and I think its often done without charity. I really wonder if they write letters to their priests/bishops quoting Canons etc at them and condescending to them as they do to their own fellow conservatives? It explains why the clergy etc basically disregard our views and avoid us whereever possible because they don't want to deal with the grief of sanctimonious lectures being given to them by, most often, amateur canon lawyers (who are often wrong!).Similarly, some of the things propagated by some conservatives on our blogs, in comments, are so damaging to our interests. I'm sure you have had your own experience dealing with this sort of thing. I've often wondered if the conservatives, who trawl through liberal issues and highlight them don't realise that the same thing could just as easily be done to them and often what is shown up is probably considered worse by authorities.I'm not sure what can be done regarding these problems though? I still remain unconvinced that ghettoism (like the ICK) is the best option. It prevents problems from interaction but also removes conservatives from positions of influence.
Firstly I don't agree that the ICK (or FSSP) represent ghettoism per se. Rather they provide examples of what orthodoxy and good communities should look like!Ghettoism, in my view, comes in when we build the walls around ourselves both to keep others out, and keep ourselves in.In the traddie context, it is manifested when the community insist on being disconnected from the wider Church and community, refusing, for example, to participate in things like Juventutem, ignoring pastoral letters of one's local bishop,etc etc. And in not making it easy for newcomers to find you through out of date or non-existent websites, etc, etc, etc. Now I admit that participation and engagement can be challenging at times - some pastoral letters I've seen for example, contain some pretty weird and wonderful things! And one can have legitimate reservations about things like WYD. But I'm inclined to think we should look for the best in such things, support them so far as we can, and push for further change in the right direction! I agree that some of the rubrical pendanty and negativity manifested in comments on some sites can be counter-productive. I didn't actually wade through the long recent debates on SCM as they weren't on topics tht interested me that much, but I cna well imagine the type of comments that issued forth. That said, I would have to say that I would always prefer, prima facie, arguments based on actual Church teaching even if somewhat agressivley and pedantically presented, than erroneous liberal waffle!I've said lots of times I'd like to see traddies make more of an effort at outreach - running more training courses for priests, introductory talks on the EF for newcomers to the mass, more special event masses etc.But I do actually think traddies aren't too bad, and are definitely picking up their game. Let's face it, there are always competing priorities, and scarce resources.
Post a Comment